Aloha everyone, (possibly not NSFW - not very raunchy!) :-)
Thanks to everyone who so enthusiastically read our last
Conversations with Spencer posting. This time we wanted to look at a particular
genre in romance erotica or even just a way of life. We’ve also got Michele
‘Mikey’ Rakes with us who writes m/m and a m/m/f poly relationship in her book
Trainwreck.
As Spencer says, “Most guys are happy with the male and two
women fantasy, but when it comes to the woman with two men, it makes them
uncomfortable.”
Why?
We’ll be talking about why that makes a lot of men
uncomfortable.
MEG:
Spencer asked why I write what I do. I write about a poly
relationship or a Troika as I’ve dubbed it. Troika in Russian means: Three
equal things, it’s also a passionate Russian dance. My three characters Henry,
Izzy and Charlie are in a committed loving relationship with each other. Often
called a ménage as well.
This concept is not complete fantasy. Often people think in
terms of ‘just the sex’ part of it. But there’s more to it than that, for me.
Polyandry is legal and accepted in certain parts of the world still. In places
like Tibet
I’ve always been deeply fascinated by unusual mixes in
relationships. They intrigue me. I worked with a woman who’d been married for
15 odd years, but she and her husband lived in separate houses. That intrigued
me. How unusual! I had a friend who was married and they had another woman in
their relationship, bed, and living room for years.
So, why does it fire my imagination? It’s not the sex.
It’s the connection between them. I started my stories as a
‘nice wee romance,’ and Charlie came into the story and wouldn’t leave. I
nicknamed him ‘bloody Charlie.’ In the end I gave in. Now, nobody could imagine
him NOT being part of Henry and Izzy.
It was odd for me to write it initially. I wasn’t as
comfortable as I am now. Not because I didn’t think it should be happening, but
more because I wondered what people would think. Me – Miss Question Authority
and Screw the World… Suddenly I was concerned with what people might think?
LOL. But it is an unusual subject and mix.
So…why does it make you uncomfortable Spencer? What parts of
your psyche does it grind at? Or just your general perceptions, feelings on the
threesome. Often male erotica writers, who write ‘vanilla’ sex, are slightly
uncomfortable with it. Why?
SPENCER:
I have to start by
affirming one of your claims, that it is about the relationship in your
stories. My only 'experience' with three way is bad porn films where it is two
girls and one guy. To clarify it's two hot girls.
I've read Henry
and Isolde and must say you create a believable narrative for the way three
people share an abiding love. You also have an amazing ability to get inside a
man's head, think and talk the way men talk. So often in romance written by
women, the men think and talk in a manor idealized by women. Readers will be in
for a real treat with Henry & Isolde. (thanks Spencer :-) Meg)
Where I jump off
the rails is in the M/M relationship. I’m a very straight vanilla M/F guy. I
must point out in your story it's not two guys doing a girl, like a porn film,
it is three people sharing a love that also exists between the two men. I found
myself squeezing my eyes shut during the M/M sex scenes and I had to ask myself
why. To answer your question, I really don't know.
For me I think it's my deeply ingrained
prohibition about homosexuality. As erotic writers we deal with boundaries. I
am up against one that defies rational explanation. I don't think in ancient times
there was near as much hysteria about homosexuality as we descendants of the
Puritans have.
Many people have serious boundaries about any
erotica. It's why we’re cast out and often censored. I had to put aside a lot
of my hang-ups about erotica just to write vanilla sex. I have humorously said
I use a pen name because if my family friends and associates knew of my
interests in writing erotica, they would drop dead in horror. They would. I have
finally reached an age and state of mind where I've realized I am not
responsible for
their feelings but I also don't need to confront them about theirs. I'm not at
all there with the sexual aspects of homosexuality. I don't need to break that
boundary either.
To repeat, what I found so fascinating about
Henry & Isolde was the way you were able to depict the love three people had for each
other that was outside of sex. So in that sense your story has opened the
window and let some fresh air into the room.
Most of BDSM has me crashing into the same
wall. But it's obvious by the tremendous response to FSOG that a lot of people
are looking for some kernel of understanding. That's our job as writers.
MIKEY:
Spencer, I think I
understand what you’re saying, that like gay men, you are hardwired to be
straight. To explain yourself, you rely on analogy to get your point across.
It’s not that you believe gay sex is akin to rape. Society has placed such a
stigma on homosexuality that it has affected the way someone as same-sex
friendly as you, still feels an aversion to something as simple as love. Sex is
sex, but love with sex, no matter the sex, is bliss.
Part of the squick factor for men is the perceived loss
of masculinity. Instinctual sex is a penetrative act. Straight men are
hardwired to do the penetrating. To be the strong alpha’s who propagate the
species. It’s their Darwinian imperative. The stronger the male, the more seed
he spreads, ensuring his traits survive.
Homosexuality is nature’s way of population control.
Life finds a way, and I think being homosexual is a great boon to society. If I
were a straight man in every traditional sense of the word, I’d never even let
a woman take control in the bedroom, because it would affect my masculinity. I
think most men fall into the median, where they like some overtures in the
bedroom from woman, but nothing so aggressive as the act of penetration,
because when that happens, men lose a measure of control. Why? Because it feels
too good, and straight men are afraid to experience that even with a woman. The
enlightened ones do, but also, straight men like women. Gay men like men.
Simple. Nothing to be afraid of in the least.
MEG:
Right, so to come back to the original question. What
EXACTLY produces the squick factor for you Spencer? Is it the penetration? Is
it two men kissing? I’m not squicked by female/female sex. It just doesn’t do
bugger all for me. I find it boring. So, it’s much more personal for men I
think.
Okay, so here’s a thought. What sensations does it give you
when you read about it? I don’t like BDSM personally. It makes me recoil in
horror. In saying that, I have read Mikey’s book Trainwreck and loved it. But I
loved the characters and the background, the mystery involved in it. And we all
(including Mikey) joke about the infamous Chapter 9 that was pivotal though to
the book. It shows her character turning himself around from that point. We
tell people, keep some garlic close by, a strong drink, turn on the lights and
maybe…load your gun with silver bullets. J
For me personally, BDSM is a straight turn off. Is this the
type of reaction you have to m/m sex? Or does it have some other element in it?
And thanks on Henry and Isolde. I wanted to show the deep love
between them. Because that’s what it’s all about, at the end of the day—the
love. I wonder if that puts my work into the Pansexual genre. I don’t know.
I’ve only just run across this category, which means to love across gender. In
other words, you love who you love. They might not come in the body you’re used to
because I wouldn’t class either Henry or Charlie as gay or even bisexual. But they’re so connected to each other on a
soul level, that is transcends everything.
But Mikey’s story is different again. Her characters are
bisexual or gay. But again, this deep love between the three of them that seems
to transcend everyday things.
I like the sexual relationship because it’s a very
vulnerable surrender in a way for a man. Men are used to being the ‘intruder,’
the penetrator. They’re not used to being penetrated—possessed, filled up, or
expanded with a penis. It’s quite a different position for a man to be in, the
non-dominator. He has to be very
vulnerable and trusting. And that is
probably what tugs at my heart strings more than anything.
SPENCER:
I'm still stuck in
the hard-wired thing. The sight of a naked man with an erection is not erotic
to me, the smell of a man's genitals, does not excite me, where both the sight of
a naked woman and the smell of her sex are big turn-ons. The thought of another
man's penis in my hand, mouth or anus makes me shudder.
With no sensory
turn-on from the usual cues, the only way the situation would arise for me is
if it was forced as in some prison film, making the vision all the more
disturbing. I'll take one step away from direct involvement: If I saw two women
getting it on through an open window, I'd watch and probably be clutching
myself. If I saw two guys, I'd pull down my shade.
I realized it is a
deeply engraved cultural norm, like the way good Jews and Muslims are revolted
by pigs. I guess it's back to my thing about brussel sprouts, the fact that I
don't like them doesn't make them bad.
I'm out of bullets
to explain why-somewhere between hard wired and deeply culturally engrained. Maybe there's a bit of
phobia-completely irrational but intensely visceral. I think many men would express the same thoughts. Look at what a crazy loud response the topic brings in religious circles, the vehemence indicates deep seeded emotion. Why is that topic the lynch pin for the fall of Western Civilization and not, say, the murderous religious intolerance breaking out everywhere?
phobia-completely irrational but intensely visceral. I think many men would express the same thoughts. Look at what a crazy loud response the topic brings in religious circles, the vehemence indicates deep seeded emotion. Why is that topic the lynch pin for the fall of Western Civilization and not, say, the murderous religious intolerance breaking out everywhere?
With gay sex, I read it with only
one eye? I have always been able to 'read past' parts of works that offend me-
if I'm engaged by the rest of the story. Maybe a movie is a better example.
Take "Alien", I'm so compelled by the story that I endure the really
scary shit. The tricky part here is that homosexuality is not my thing, but I
don't fear it as the undoing of mankind.
It's homosexual sex
that I have trouble with. It's not the kind of sex that excites me. I find it
revolting. As a writer you want it in your story, as a reader the story would
be just as good for me if it was about the relationship but without the sex.
Meg here: I kept
bugging Spencer, but why? But why? Until he wanted to scream. And this is what
we got down to. It’s just revolting for him. Fair enough.
SPENCER:
As a writer how do you come to the topic of
M/M sex?
MEG:
To be perfectly Francis with you. I have no idea! It wasn’t
my intention to write a m/m/f story. I wanted to tell an intensely rich, deeply
sultry, sensuous and deep romantic relationship between an older man and
younger woman. The gorgeous satisfying sex was part of their story because it
should be part of a great romance.
All was going well, until…Charlie turned up. He just
wouldn’t go away, one of those rogue characters which you had no intention of
writing and simply takes over the whole story. With me saying helpful things
like: But? But? Hang on? No? NO? I said… Jesus Charlie! As he stampeded through
my ‘nice wee love story.’
He was supposed to be a ‘sidekick supportive friend’ to
Henry, but he was so energetic on the pages, so full of charm and depth,
charismatic and sexual—he was almost impossible to say no to. He wanted it all
too. A sex scene, another one, he wanted to be part of their relationship, he
wanted to live with them. Charlie’s list was long and loud.
Initially I resisted this. People won’t want to read about
this kind of relationship. That’s not true. Hugely popular part of the market
share. But, I was unaware of that at the time.
Was I repelled by it? No. Charlie’s very engaging, he’s hard
to dislike. I was worried people would think he was destroying the sheer beauty
of Henry and Izzy. I didn’t want people hating Charlie, because he’s so
vulnerable and has the hardest time. I wanted people to fall in love with him
too. I fell in love with the relationship of the three of them.
In frustration I finally talked to my mentor about it. He
said, “Just write him in. Give him a scene and let him run with it. See what he
does. It might be enough for him.”
So I did. And it didn’t. LOL. Oh no, all I’d done was sent
out an engraved invitation for Charlie to take carte blanche. I was surprised
at my own enjoyment with him there. How right he felt. Henry and Isolde started
as one book. But we had to know Charlie’s story and his falling in love and
where it all went. Book 2 – The Chi Circle
So, he just took over. By the time I wrote Flame, I couldn’t
have imagined them without Charlie. He’s such a part of them. The love between
him and Henry is soul deep, as it is with Izzy. And when we see how many past
lives they’ve had together and things that have happened, we get why they’re so
connected to each other.
I didn’t 'come to the topic.’ It hijacked me. LOL. In a
lovely Stockholm Syndrome way. But I’ve always been fascinated by bisexual men
and I find gay sex highly erotic to watch. I think you often see men at their
most open and vulnerable. That’s highly appealing. You get let into an intimate
world.
MIKEY:
With Vince, I wanted to see how far I could push
him, and as I was pushing him, he began to reveal his secrets to me. Despite
his love for his wife, he couldn’t battle his urges, nor could he reveal his
true self to his wife.
When I wrote Trainwreck, I hadn’t even known there
was the MM Romance genre. I’d never heard of FSoG. Still haven’t read it, but I
did start reading MM. I happened upon it by accident searching for erotica. It
was important for me to find what it is people write when doing sex scenes. All
I’ve ever read was Hustler and Penthouse Forum. I learned about sex the male
way, so I guess I was primed for MM at a young age.
As for playing, participating or engaging in BDSM,
I’ve fantasized about being whipped since I was fifteen. Oh it there was a
movie where the hero was being flogged or caned, I was there fantasizing. So
for Vince to be into BDSM was a great reveal for me and to be in love with a
gay whip master was the ultimate. God, turns me on just writing about it, and
don’t ask me why I love watching men make love. Part of me thinks I was a gay
man in a past life, and I didn’t get to act on it, so I am now. Just struggling
with the bits.
In answer to the question, I came to write M/M
because I am turned on by the genre, and because I think there’s nothing wrong
with gay sex or love.
MEG:
So, I’m not sure we
have really got a clear definitive answer on ‘why’ men find it uncomfortable.
Other than it just produces a gut clenching shudder through their body. It’s a
very visceral reaction for a lot of men. Whether that’s a cultural thing, early
childhood experiences, mindsets or just plain ‘not for me,’ it remains a strong
reactionary subject, even amongst the male erotica writers that write ‘vanilla’
sex scenes.
Are men just used to
being the ‘penetrator?’ Does it make them feel way too vulnerable and out of
control? Does it impinge on their masculinity in some way? Is there a level of shame involved, perhaps on a
very subconscious level, with the way that society can react to gay men
especially? I think there is a lot of factors tied up in the way that men react
to gay men and gay sex.
What continues to
fascinate me: Is why we women are so deeply attracted to it.
Is it that we simply
crave men who are more actualized emotionally? Or we perceive that gay men are
more that way? Is it the levels of vulnerability we sense? Or is it something
more primal? I don’t know. I’d love to hear people’s thoughts though. J
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| Amazon ~ On special until Thursday .99 cents www.troikaromance.com Henry and Isolde will be released in Spring 2015  Amazon |
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| Amazon ~ Just released this week!! |
